Here’s Exactly How Ugly and Personal the Vaccine Debate Has Become

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Author of Be Ready for Anything and Bloom Where You’re Planted online course

Warning: This article contains profanity in some of the quotes taken off Facebook.

I was really planning on staying out of the whole vaccine debate because I don’t think anyone anywhere ever changed their minds because they read a blog post once. What I can’t, in good conscience, stay out of is the censorship and propaganda surrounding this debate.

I read an article on CNN that was incredibly sad. A mother who had lost her young son to influenza was allegedly “attacked by anti-vaxxers.”  The report said:

Grieving and frightened, just days after her son’s death she checked her Facebook page hoping to read messages of comfort from family and friends.
Instead, she found dozens of hateful comments: You’re a terrible mother. You killed your child. You deserved what happened to your son. This is all fake – your child doesn’t exist…The attacks were from those who oppose vaccination… (source)

Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, it’s repugnant. No matter who is doing it, they should be ashamed of themselves. It’s on the same level as Westboro Baptist Church members picketing the funerals of soldiers.

The article goes on to say that this is a frequent occurrence, and in fact, planned as a tactic by “anti-vaxxers.”

Interviews with mothers who’ve lost children and with those who spy on anti-vaccination groups, reveal a tactic employed by anti-vaxers: When a child dies, members of the group sometimes encourage each other to go on that parent’s Facebook page. The anti-vaxers then post messages telling the parents they’re lying and their child never existed, or that the parent murdered them, or that vaccines killed the child, or some combination of all of those.  (source)


It is the lunatic fringe.

Most parents I know who object to mandatory vaccines simply want the choice to make medical decisions for their children. They don’t give two hoots if another parent opts to get their kid every jab under the sun.

That’s because they understand that parents should have choices.

The article I mentioned above is pure propaganda, published to make parents who don’t vaccinate look like evil lunatics. When CNN shared the statement of Larry Cook, the founder of Stop Mandatory Vaccination, they said that he “wasn’t denying” that it happened, downplaying what Mr. Cook and members of his group were going through.

This debate is so heated and so ugly that the claws are coming out.

Is it a stretch of the imagination – to wonder if the alleged “anti-vaxxers” attacking bereaved parents are actually on the pro-vax side, trying to justify the kind of behavior that they inflict upon parents who want a choice? Because this really seems to be their MO, as you’ll see when you read on.

Maybe, maybe not.

Extremists are extreme, regardless of whether they’re pro-vax or anti-vax. Nobody should be abused for the medical decisions they’ve made.

Let’s talk about the stuff CNN left out.

Vaccine-Choice parents are getting attacked too.

I can tell you that I’ve received barrages of hate from numerous people because I dare to bring up the V-word in a way that isn’t “YAY, GET YOUR VACCINES!!!!”

I question the wisdom of giving a billion injections at once to tiny babies. That’s because my own tiny baby ended up in the hospital with encephalitis – swelling on the brain – after her first round of shots. Mercifully, she recovered without any serious effects, but that isn’t always the case.

After that, I weighed each decision carefully and worked with my pediatrician. My children got some vaccines, one at a time, and did not receive others. We do not get flu shots or HPV shots. We make our own medical decisions in cooperation with our doctor. I deliberately found pediatricians who would work with me because I felt so strongly about this. My kids weren’t snot-nosed little hillbillies, running around infecting others with deadly diseases. They were healthy, clean, and well-fed.

Because of my philosophy, I’ve gotten hate mail that would blow your mind. I’ve had to block people on social media who call me ignorant. I’ve had people say my kids should have been taken away from me. I’ve had people call me abusive. And these are the nicer things people said.

And think about it – I’m neither “pro-vax” nor “anti-vax.”  I’m a supporter of the choice to make medical decisions for my family. And because I support both one mother’s choice to get her babies fully vaccinated and another mom’s choice to opt out of all vaccines for her child, people think I’m a terrible person. It’s mind-blowing, isn’t it?

Here are some of the things people say to parents who want vaccine choice.

In the CNN article waaaaaaay at the end, you’ll find a few statements from parents who just want a choice.

“I do not condone violent behavior or tone and encourage decorum during discussion,” Cook wrote, adding that anyone “who deliberately engage[s] in the politics of advocating for compulsory vaccination where children may be further damaged through government vaccine mandates can expect push back and resistance, alongside knowledgable discussions about vaccine risk in social media commentary.”
Cook said some of the more than 160,000 members of his group have been targets of “harassment campaigns,” and that “police have actually showed up at my members’ doorsteps.”
He added that he’s been threatened and included a screenshot of a private Facebook message that said, “Finally found where you live. Finally I’ll be able to put a bullet in you. You are dead.” (source)

On a recent article that I wrote about a group of doctors who opposed mandatory vaccines, there were some rather unpleasant comments although most were productive.

  • Anti vaccination is just a symptom of a growing “anti science, anti intellectual” movement. Much in common with: moon landing hoax, flat earth, anti floride, anti pasteurization of milk. It’s is not apparently exclusive to left or right either.
  • If my medically can’t be vaccinated kid dies from your by choice unvaccinated kid passing along a preventable illness I would come looking for you

But this is nothing compared to what medical freedom activists like Kate Tietje endure on a daily basis. (Warning: Profanity)

And this is just a teeny sample of the hate you’ll see on any page that suggests parents be in charge of their children’s healthcare.

There are groups of pro-vax people that are downright nasty.

There are virulent pages that espouse hate, discrimination, vengeance, and the ways to make parents who want a choice as angry as possible.

The person who posted this comment on Facebook provided a list.

We abso-fucking-lutley CAN discrimination against you Pro-Plague dickheads! And we sane people DO have the right not to get infected with Measles or Polio or any other preventable deadly disease.

Keep yourself and infectious brats at home.

This is the ONLY kind of discrimination that I support and encourage

Here are the groups she recommends joining if you, too, want to troll parents who raise their kids differently. They’re called “tag groups” and when you tag them, members come and insult the person who posted the opinion with which they disagree. They’re like mean pro-vax gangs.

Here comes the pro-disease moms with a PHD in Google.

sounds like you’re trying to write anti-vax fanfic but ok

Why Are Anti-Vaxxers Like This?

forget CPS, I’m calling Deadpool

this is why thanos out here snappin

I don’t think that’s science

I will YEET this person into an ACTIVE VOLCANO

I Bet You Were Totally Unprepared For The Response Your Post Is Getting

that’s not how it works, that’s not how anything works

This Fills With Me A Rage I Didn’t Anticipate

Measles heart reacted your post

Just throw the whole human away

imagine thinking “i have an idea!”, and the idea was this.

Since OP is trash this dumpster fire is not surprising

Start Mandatory Vaccination

shitposting bait get your shitposting bait right here

Screenshots! Get Your Screenshots! It’s Gonna Be A Dirty Delete!


Alexa, how do I abort an adult?

If you want to see the true meaning of irrational hate, read through the comments on this post. It’s a public one so you’ll be able to see it without a Facebook account.

But lest it seem one-sided, trust me, it’s not.

People on both sides of this fight can be horrendous to those who disagree. My friend Jennifer has had some really terrible experiences, too.

I had to unfriend an anti-vax person last year because two of my kids are autistic and she would send me PMs telling me it was my fault for vaccinating, and that she would rather have her child die of measles than have to raise an autistic child. She was relentless and she’s far from the only one.

Non-stop attacks from anti-vaxxers and other “natural mamas” were a major reason I deleted everything off of my Facebook page and now only use FB for private groups. It’s not just vaccines either. I have also received incredibly malicious PMs and public call outs for letting my asthmatic child take prescription medications to control it instead of attempting to treat it with topical oils and honey.

It really is both sides doing it. Someone who is anti-vax is not going to be a target for of other anti-vaxxers so I can understand why they might believe it either does not happen or is a false flag operation by pro-vaxxers.

But if you do vaccinate or have a child with any kind of medical condition you will very quickly find out you can’t say that online. Friends, family, friends-of-friends and even complete strangers will blame you for vaccinating them. Just another one of the many things ripping our society apart.

Nobody should be talking to any parent like this. No matter what your beliefs.

Keep in mind, I’m not telling YOU whether or not to vaccinate your kids.

This should be your choice. You should do your research. You should discuss concerns with medical professionals. You should learn about some of the awards giving by the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program – they’ve given out over a billion dollars to parents who proved their children were injured by vaccines.

The stories on both sides of this debate are horrific. There are parents who watched their child die of the flu and see it posted all over the media that “the child did not have a flu shot.”  There are parents who watched their baby, who was perfectly healthy and developing on schedule, get a vaccination and become a shell of their former selves after suffering grand mal seizures within hours of the injection.

Soon we won’t be able to discuss this at all.

And it is now becoming a free speech issue, as social media outlets crack down on all discussion of alternatives to “fully vaccinating” your children. Pinterest has removed any posts they deem anti-vax and Facebook has vowed to “get tougher” on anti-vax discussions, too.

Shouldn’t it worry all of us that these conversations are becoming verboten?  That’s right out of the totalitarian handbook. Soon we won’t be able to discuss this or get any kind of information that doesn’t toe the party line. That is terrifying.

This video discusses the censorship aspect of this crackdown. It’s long but absolutely worth the watch.

We should always be able to talk about different opinions. How else will you know you’ve made the right choice? By shuffling along the vaccine assembly line and getting your kid a sticker that proudly claims he or she has been vaccinated? Sorry, but for me, a pat on the back from the government is not enough.

There truly are two sides to this story.

But shouldn’t the parents be the ones who decide which risk they’re willing to take? I can’t make this decision for anyone but my own family and neither should anyone else try to make the decisions for others.

Hateful rhetoric and insults never changed anybody’s mind and made them say, “Oh, by George, you’re right! off to the doctor we go!”  By belittling anyone’s personal stories or beliefs, you shut down all possibility for productive conversations.

The hatred of another parent for their decision, which they surely made after a painstaking debate, is a fire that is being fanned by the mainstream media.  (What else is new? Spurring on division is what they do.)

Every family deserves the right to make medical decisions. Even if I make different decisions for my family. And we also have the right to privacy about those decisions.

It is truly a tragic state of affairs when we can’t even have a peaceful conversation about the lives of our children but it’s obvious we can’t.

What are your thoughts?

What do you think about all the nastiness around the vaccine debate? Do you think vaccines should be mandatory? Do you think non-vaccinated children should be social outcasts? Do you believe parents should be able to choose how their child is treated medically?

Please keep it civil in the comments.

Daisy Luther

Daisy Luther

Daisy Luther is a coffee-swigging, globe-trotting blogger. She is the founder and publisher of three websites.  1) The Organic Prepper, which is about current events, preparedness, self-reliance, and the pursuit of liberty on her website, 2)  The Frugalite, a website with thrifty tips and solutions to help people get a handle on their personal finances without feeling deprived, and 3), an aggregate site where you can find links to all the most important news for those who wish to be prepared. She is widely republished across alternative media and  Daisy is the best-selling author of 5 traditionally published books and runs a small digital publishing company with PDF guides, printables, and courses. You can find her on FacebookPinterest, Gab, MeWe, Parler, Instagram, and Twitter.

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  • It seemingly has become almost like a religious war, each side is absolutely right, the other side dead wrong and should be (insert act of violence here).
    Civility here in the USA is becoming less and less. It is either think my way or down with you and all your kind.


    • In certain areas, there are set rights and wrongs, and your opinion is irrelevant. A dropped hammer will fall. Your opinion on gravity is irrelevant. A polio vaccine will protect you from polio. Catching polio can kill or cripple you. Your opinion on germ theory is irrelevant.

      • Uh, no. Just because you trust some “expert’s opinion” that they call a “fact,” that does not make it a fact.

      • 1. Fr Gough’s reply doesn’t seem to relate to the opinion expressed by 1stMarineJarHead. Is it perhaps a reply to a different post?
        2. “A” polio vaccine? There have been quite a number and some (—–the Cutter Incident in 1955 and Simian Virus 40 (SV40) between 1955 and1963 which contaminated both inactivated polio vaccines and oral polio vaccines) have been recalled due to contamination.
        The same CDC site details othervaccine “incidents” that likely were not so incidental to the victims:
        Swine Flu Vaccine and Guillain-Barré Syndrome – 1976
        Hepatitis B Vaccine and Multiple Sclerosis – 1998
        Rotavirus Vaccine and Intussusception – 1998 – 1999
        Guillain-Barré Syndrome and Meningococcal Vaccine – 2005 – 2008
        Hib Vaccine Recall – 2007
        H1N1 Influenza Vaccine and Narcolepsy – 2009 – 2010
        Porcine Circovirus in Rotavirus Vaccines – 2010
        HPV Vaccine Recall – 2013
        3. “A” polio vaccine MAY protect you from polio. Even CDC says:
        “Two doses of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) are 90% effective or more against polio; three doses are 99% to 100% effective.”
        and “It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV.”
        Uhmm. That pesky booster issue again…..

        • @Kathleen,
          Yep, I was merely observing the divide on ANY issue is seemingly, to me, becoming more and more extreme.
          And the seemingly absolutism on each side of an issue.

  • At my 14-year-old son’s annual physical recently his doctor wanted him to get the HPV vaccine and the second MMR, which he hadn’t gotten as a child. I believe vaccines may have done some damage to him when he was a baby/toddler, so I’ve been much more deliberate and careful about them ever since. I said no to both vaccines and we had a good conversation about it and he respected my decision. With my second child I spaced out the vaccines and didn’t do any flu shots, and he’s been fine. That doesn’t mean that vaccines caused my older kid’s problems, but I think it points in that direction. My theory is that genes and/or environmental factors were the loaded gun and vaccines may have been the trigger that set problems off in him that might otherwise have laid dormant. I wish I’d known back then about the potential dangers of vaccines, and that a baby should especially never be given a bunch of vaccines when they have a fever. (What was the doctor’s office thinking??)

    Parents absolutely have the right to choose how and when (or when not) to vaccinate their children.

    • That is exactly how I describe it. Genes load the gun and ANY environmental event, including vaccines, pulls the trigger. The MTHFR mutation is a huge culprit in the vaccine injured population. Add to this the inadequate safety studies, no double blind placebo studies, no safety studies on the schedule as a whole for synergistic effects, and no safety studies on the injection of aluminum PLUS pharma being indemnified from liability for vaccine injury in 1986 and there is NO way this product should be mandated at any level.

    • Agreed! I had the same story. And they absolutely do give shots with a fever and recommend tylenol after which I heard exacerbates it. My middle son screamed high pitch and had a 106 fever after shots and had learning issues his whole life.

      • Don’t know if the vax aggravated your son’s illness or if it was the illness itself, but a high fever definitely will cause injury to the brain at any age. The doctor should have rescheduled the shots for when your boy was feeling better. God bless the both of you and may your son be strengthened in all ways.

  • Vaccines are a bioweapon, have nothing to do with preventing anything, accept for good health.
    Jenner’s work, which is the basis for this scientific voodoo, has been proven, without a doubt, fraudulent and irresponsible. Keeping one’s health is based on having a strong terrain, immune system and no vaccine can do that…it actually does the opposite. No vaccine eradicated anything and if vaccines actually worked, they wouldn’t have to make them mandatory.

    All of the current vaccines actually alter our DNA.

    The current vaccines are made up of the very same ingredients, used by ancient ” poisoners ” as they were called, until the KJV bible changed the word to “witches”. The Poisoners would use blood, heavy metals and all sorts of toxins. These poisoners were highly sought out by the rulers of the time. So what’s in today’s vaccines? The very same crap. Most people have no idea they use fetal baby cells, provided by Planned Parenthood, making a cannibal out of everyone who gets one.

    Vaccine Found to Contain 65 Unknown-to-science Compounds: The research firm’s findings are “astounding” and “should have the medical community up in arms about vaccine pseudo-consensus science.” Using extremely sensitive new technologies not used in vaccine manufacturing, Italian scientists reported they were “baffled” by their discoveries which included single particles and aggregates of organic debris including red cells of human or possibly animal origin and metals including lead, tungsten, gold, and chromium, that have been linked to autoimmune disease and leukemia.

    We shoot more babies/people in America, than any other nation and our embarrassing infant mortality is puts us near the bottom of list. Your baby has a better chance of surviving the first hour born in Bangladesh, then America. Why? Vaccines. Brand new babies being “shot” by the CDC military compromises their immune system and leads to sickness, allergies or death. Allergies and vaccines. Coincidence? I think not.

    Why is it that when they run out of vaccines, the death rate for babies go down? Coincidence? This is one reason they can’t stop them. If they stopped all vaccines tomorrow, it would put attention on infant mortality rates, and many other health issues.. SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, allergies, autism…etc would fall off the charts, probably disappear, until they start them up again.

    Anti-Vaccine Japan Has World’s Lowest Child Death Rate & Highest Life Expectancy

    The introduction of Fluoride into our drinking water, a waste product of the nuclear energy industry, introduced at the same time as our modern vaccine program, compounds our poor health. Fluoride, a neurotoxin…does not belong in our body. Fluoride binds heavy metals and makes it difficult for the body to eliminate it, which over time, it accumulates. Vaccines…contain heavy metals. They contain poisons and blood, chemicals and just recently chemicals they can’t identify. These vaccines are not tested before they release them….US Government Loses Vaccine Lawsuit — Has Lied to the Public for Decades — Vaccines NOT Tested…yep, that’s right.

    The only people who still get vaccines, are duped and uneducated.

    • It’s this sort of ignorant gibberish that so infuriates against “anti-vaxxers.” Vaccines are the result of literally CENTURIES of experimental science, and have been so effective at eradicating childhood disease that people have forgotten iron lung wards, neighborhood quarantines, the rich fleeing cities with their small children when measles or mumps outbreaks would occur, and so now think those diseases never happened. All because of the effectiveness of vaccination.

      • First, I must admit I’m skeptical of the charge all these horrific on-line comments are posted by true anti- vaxxers. I’m sure there are zealots and nuts in any group, but the people I know who vaccinated on limited schedules, etc. are nothing like this. Seems like a convenient way to vilify the opposition to vaccines. Kinda of like calling anyone who supports Trump a Nazi,

        Sorry if you disapprove of Tom’s conclusions, but I’ve read some of the articles/studies to which he refers, and all the data is true. There are serious issues… not an opinion, not a viewpoint… documented problems. Vaccines are protected legally from prosecution even with gross contamination and negligence. Baxter Pharma in 2009 sent flu vaccine to 18 countries that contained the live H5N1 strain. No punishment.

        If you choose to vaccinate, and the Pharma data is true (caveat), then unvaccinated people pose NO RISK to you, only other “anti-vaxxers.” But the data of the vaccine panacea tells another story. For instance, the MMR doesn’t provide life long immunity. There have been several outbreaks of both measles and mumps on college campuses, most of whom require MMR boosters for admission. Mumps in a post puberty male raises chances of infertility. There is scientific evidence of this decreasing immunity. If you have these diseases as a child, you have life-long immunity.

        The patent holder of the MMR, Merck is still embroiled in a lawsuit by two whistleblowers who witnessed the company alter data to improve the efficacy. They lied and submitted these documents to the FDA,

        I’ve been vaccinated for a couple of things like tetanus (every 10 years), and Hep A ( one shot, lifelong). For me, the risk is outweighed by the benefit for these particular vaccines given my chances of exposure. That is the issue: risk vs. benefit. In the case of rabies vaccine you stand an equal or better than equal chance of contracting the disease from the vaccine. The question then turns to regulating/monitoring vaccine quality control. Sadly this is almost non-existent.

        2008 Senate hearings revealed that at that time, over 80% of ALL PHARMA sold in the USA was wholly or partially made overseas. The FDA stated they had no regulatory control over these plants, and admitted they only inspected 10-30% of the imports. It was stated then that it would take 13 years to inspect all the Chinese plants just once, if no others joined in.

        China and India are now players in the vaccine market. For two consecutive years, a Chinese firm exported tainted DPT vaccine that was documented to have killed children within China.

        The Italian study in International Vaccines and Vaccinations examined 44 samples of 30 different vaccines, and found dangerous contaminants, including red blood cells in one vaccine and metal toxicants in every single sample tested – except in one animal vaccine. Previous documented recalls after deaths included vaccines contaminated with Staph Aureus, and glass shards.

        The point? Everyone is screaming “it’s about the children.” Really? Or is it about control? If you drive without your seatbelt, and get into an MVA, your bad…not mine. If you give your kid a mobile phone at age 6yo, do I get to have CPS come and take them away? Do you know the radiation risks to their developing brains? Read the contracts’ fine print for the acceptable distance its to be carried away from the body. We allow people to make “bad choices” everyday, and call it our rights. The same should be true here. Regarding the FDA’s blatant lack of oversight with vaccines: Is that OK for you to close your eyes and say,”It won’t happen to me or mine”… my world, the answer is yes. Gamble if you choose.

      • According to experimental “science” re inoculation has happened for centuries. However, copied and pasted from:
        The germ theory of disease was not really fully developed until the 1870s….
        ……The conclusive proof was obtained by several scientists, but the most crucial evidence came from the work of Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch in the 1860s and 1870s.

        This makes me wonder how reliable these “centuries of experimental science” i.e. anecdotal evidence, really were. Should I suppose Fr Gough also accepts the “experimental science” aka anecdotal evidence of any of the individuals compensated through the VAERS system for injuries caused by vaccines? Should I also suppose Fr Gough has not read Suzanne Humphries MD’s book “Dissolving Illusions”? Perhaps Fr Gough could educate us by writing a book for us countering all this “nonsense” instead of trolling sites like this one……..

        • My mistake. It is not VAERS. VICP is the correct acronym. VAERS is for reporting adverse vaccine events and VICP is theoretically for compensation from vaccine injuries. Personally, I would rather not be injured than to have to try to work through any kind of compensation program.

    • Ok I totally respect your opinion and your right to shout it from the rooftops but I have one question. How can avoiding vaccines prevent shaken baby syndrome? Shaken baby syndrome can only be prevented by not shaking you baby.

      • Kristie,

        Injured infants have often been assigned the diagnosis “shaken baby syndrome” when in fact the child was injured by an adverse reaction to a vaccine. Applying the “shaken baby syndrome” diagnosis then sets up the family for CPS intervention and sometimes governmental removal of the child from its family.

        It’s a terrible, tragic situation when a loving, stable family is destroyed by government because one of their children suffered an adverse reaction to a vaccination and rather than admit it’s an adverse reaction, the doctor calls in CPS.

        You might deny that this happens, or at least not often, but I’ve read of dozens of occurrences. Put yourself in the shoes of a parent whose child suffers or dies from an adverse reaction to a vaccine, then your children are all taken away and you’re put in jail.

        Now put yourself in the shoes of a doctor who is presented with a sick or dead child, whose brain shows signs of encephalitis. There is potential loss of professional license and therefore career if he or she reports an adverse vaccine reaction; the pharmaceutical company pushback is frighteningly powerful. In contrast, there are only positive outcomes if CPS is called; all responsibility falls away and the doctor can blithely attend to the next patient in line.

        • Susan
          Interesting theory, I have never heard the two linked before. I searched the web and found a lot of conflicting information. I would think there might be other, possibly missed, indications of the difference between shaken baby syndrome and adverse vaccine reactions. The example would be a child who had an adverse reaction would have no bruising and no other injuries where a shaken baby would have bruising, neck injuries, or possibly an injury where the child was held when shaken. I also see how it could be possible to confuse the two by a doctor or coroner who was not astute or possibly had an agenda. That being said, if the baby wasn’t shaken then it isn’t really shaken baby syndrome but a misdiagnosis of some other condition. Thank you for bringing up this point, it is new information to me.

    • Yep. The smallpox epidemics were mythical. In fact, those people really died from anti-vaxxer introduced poisons. And certainly the Spanish Flu was caused by “blood, heavy metals and all sorts of toxins”, though it’s not clear to me how those dozens of millions of victims all managed to ingest those things before the age of multiple vaccinations.

      Gawd, you’d think we’re still trying to develop a process called “science” to read some of the absurd projections of folks who have no comprehension of reality. But what we’re really struggling with is the human propensity for irrationality. We can expect war and other human evils to continue to afflict us so long as humans are incapable of rational thought and analytical evaluation of cause, effect, and risk/reward ratios.

      I have to admit that I’m also flummoxed at your notion that we kill more infants than anywhere else. I admit, we have a horrible infant and post-partum mortality rate. But that’s largely because we don’t impose many standards on our health-care system. Kids who die before they are vaccinated haven’t died due to the fact that they would have in future been vaccinated, despite your apparent perception. I don’t even know what to encourage you to do. I’d suggest anti-psychotic meds, but they’re largely ineffective. At least that’s a field of medicine you might correctly assess.

      • SMALLPOX: One could read Suzanne Humphries MD’s book, “Dissolving Illusions”, to get more history on smallpox epidemics. Plenty of smallpox was spread through mandatory vaccination. Plenty of people were injured and died from the vaccinations of the time. People were jailed for refusing vaccines. Often simple quarantine was the most effective preventative.

        SPANISH FLU:

        In 2005….scientists succeeded in sequencing the virus’ RNA… But they still don’t know exactly where the virus came from or how it achieved such staggering lethality, killing more than half a million Americans and an estimated 50 million people worldwide in a single year.

        Some researchers believe the story began on the morning of this day, Mar. 11, 1918, when a soldier in Fort Riley, Kans., went to the camp infirmary with a fever. According to the PBS documentary Influenza 1918, more than 100 soldiers had reported to the infirmary by noon. Within a week, that number had quintupled. Several dozen soldiers died there that spring, before the contagion seemed the ebb; the official cause was pneumonia.

        As soldiers fanned out to fight World War I, however, the virus made its way around the globe, from European battlefields to remote areas of Russia and Greenland, spawning two more pandemic waves that were even deadlier than the first. (It became known as Spanish flu only because the Spanish news media was the first to widely report the epidemic, which had been hushed by wartime censors elsewhere in Europe.)

        The virus was reconstructed from tissues of victims from 1918. Besides the Public Health Agency of Canada’s lab in Winnipeg, it exists only at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta.

        In normal flu, the immune system response wanes, but in the 1918 flu “the innate response stayed up and didn’t go down. There was an uncontrolled or aberrant response. There was some surprise that it was that nasty,” University of Washington virologist and study co-author Michael Katze said. “It was the robustness of the immune system that helped victimize them.”

        Adolfo Garcia-Sastre, a Mount Sinai microbiology professor who conducted some of the earlier mouse work, said it may be a mistake to focus so heavily on immune system response. The 1918 flu virus “induces an overwhelming and probably damaging immune response system” but it is largely because the virus grows so much, he said.

        In mice, when the overactive immune response was eliminated, mice died because of high viral levels.

        “It’s like a vicious circle, you get more viruses, you get more immune response and this results in damage,” Garcia-Sastre said.

        Arsenic compounds and mercury were extensively used during the 18th and 19th centuries.
        From a review on
        re the book The Arsenic Century: How Victorian Britain Was Poisoned at Home, Work, and Play, by James C. Whorton, wallpaper, beer, wine, sweets, wrapping paper, painted toys, sheep dip, insecticides, clothing, dead bodies, stuffed animals, hat ornaments, coal, and candles—all contained arsenic. There was even arsenic in medicine (often deliberately prescribed by doctors). Unregulated for much of the 19th century, arsenic was available to everyone……. the ubiquity of arsenic in everyday life.

        ….Fashion at this time was riddled with dangers. Socks made with aniline dyes inflamed men’s feet and gave garment workers sores and even bladder cancer. Lead makeup damaged women’s wrist nerves so that they couldn’t raise their hands.
        …… the actual maladies hat makers suffered were no joke—mercury poisoning was debilitating and deadly.
        So we can conclude the 1918 Spanish Flu virus was unusually virulent. Certainly soldiers and the ghastly physical and psychological conditions to which they were exposed during WW I, including being spattered with blood from their wounded and killed comrades, contributed to the epidemics. People all over were under terrific emotional stress from the war. Chemical weapons were used in Europe during the war. Toxic products were commonplace.
        I cold continue……..

    • “The only people who still get vaccines, are duped and uneducated.”

      I disagree 100% with the above statement! My 3 children had their vaccines when scheduled. All are healthy adults. Just as all parents are different, so are all children. Genes make a huge difference in everyone’s health. Just my Humble Opinion.

      • None the less, that still doesn’t mean you were not duped. How did your physician educate you on the subject and how did you educate yourself? How many vaccines were on the schedule when your children were vaccinated? Were your children vaccinated with multiple agents at the same time? Perhaps you were just lucky, for which I am grateful because we already have way too many sick and poorly functioning people in this world.

    • Wow on the Fluoride issue, I didn’t know that. I’ll tell my youngest brother who never had a cavity untilh he hit 25. It probably kept his iQ from being higher than the 140 it is. Shame on them!

  • I have two sons injured by vaccines. I can tell you that the majority of comments OFF of my page are hideous. It is real. It is waaay more sided to the pro vax people doing this. You were correct when you say that the majority of us dont care what you do. We can post science, and there is A LOT of it unadulterated by our government and pharma. They usually just post condemning, hateful remarks. I actually had a refreshing discussion on FB yesterday that was no emotional, not hateful, and just exchanging opinions. It was NOT the norm. Every social media platform has deleted accounts and censored information from pro safety advocates sharing documented FACTS and science. You can trace every bit of this back to pharma. They are the largest lobbyests to Congress. They have infiltrated state legislatures. There is a revolving door at the CDC with pharma. If people are not in the middle of this, they do not understand what is going on.

    • Yes it is very one sided. the government wants control and the big pharmaceuticals have the money to quash anyone that doesn’t agree with them. As always follow the money. Big Pharma is so full of corruption and greed I find it hard to trust them 100% on ANYTHING. Most Sheeple are totally blind to what is going on and why the debates are being intentionally heated up…

      I am NOT pro or anti vaccination. I is NO ONES business whether my kids are fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated, not vaccinated, vaccine injured or not…. Parents have to prove either vaccination or exemption for school, that is about all legally. Just concerned about why government and pharma are trying so hard to REMOVE your RIGHT to choose… Honestly the amount of harsh PRO-Vaccine propaganda lately makes me reconsider if vaccines are really safe or just good for business profits with no liability for harm…

  • The worst part about this problem is that the industry needs to be called to answer for the ongoing human experiment conducted without oversight or accountability. A person who even invests a small amount of time looking into the vaccine issue quickly understands that there is a lazy, disinterested and unethical monstrosity in this field. Most of us had to spend hundreds of hours in books, papers and medical literature to determine our course of action. I tell people now to simply spend a little while watching Del Bigtree on YT. Recently he’s been featuring testimony from a vaccine veteran in a court setting. I think there’s so much fear in this area. People are just terrified to think on their own and make a decision. I’ve been engaged in these horrible online exchanges before and it is shocking to see what people are willing to say. And you do begin to see repeated names and lines. There are people paid to engage this issue and they are brutal. It’s usually not civil by any stretch. What’s to become of us? Thank you for taking the time to look into this Daisy. I always appreciate your sensible approach.

  • Quoting Daisy’s post: “Every family deserves the right to make medical decisions. Even if I make different decisions for my family. And we also have the right to privacy about those decisions.”

    I don’t think I can agree with the third (last) sentence above. Supposing you do not have your child vaccinated against pertussis (whooping couth – the “P” of “DPT”) and do not warn me; so that I continue to let my child play with yours. My child catches pertussis from yours (no symptoms were yet apparent in your child). Surely this isn’t right? So I don’t think parents can always have the ‘right to privacy’.

    There is also something called “herd immunity” (which see: ). This is important to all the members of a society.

    The whole thing is a rather complex issue

    • If your kid is vaccinated by the supposedly “safe and effective’ vaccines, given as “recommended”, why would it not be “immunized” against contracting my kid’s measles.
      Isn’t that protection what you paid for the vaccine to do, that is, protect yourself against wild measles?
      The real risk is for my kid to get infected by your kid “shedding” after their vaccination. The only “wild” measles is here via third world refugees swarming into our communities, unvetted as to their health and history. Current outbreaks are from “vaccine measles”, an entirely new and unnatural strain, infecting , mostly, the supposedly “protected” duly vaccinated as scheduled. Effective? Safe?

      • Oh, good grief. It is impossible to catch measles from a vaccine. They don’t inject you with the virus.

        If you folks want to be taken seriously in your anti-vaccination position, learn the science.

        • I am serious. Take your own advice. You need to do research rather than espouse the party line.

          Three years ago, a groundbreaking study published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases, whose authorship included scientists working for the Bureau of Immunization, New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, and the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Atlanta, GA, looked at evidence from the 2011 New York measles outbreak that individuals with prior evidence of measles vaccination and vaccine immunity were both capable of being infected with measles and infecting others with it (secondary transmission).

          This finding even aroused the attention of mainstream news reporting, such as this article from April 2014 titled “Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time.”

          Please do your homework before emotionally responding.

        • “Viral vaccines contain either inactivated viruses or attenuated (alive but not capable of causing disease) viruses. Inactivated or killed viral vaccines contain viruses, which have lost their ability to replicate and in order for it to bring about a response it contains more antigen than live vaccines.”

          All it would take is something not quite right to occur in the manufacturing. Deliberate or not.

          Some folks are more trusting of stuff being pushed into their bloodstream than others. As we can see by vehemently held opinions, some feel that their trust has not been earned or has been broken. Broken trusters are not easily mended. As soon as something is mandated, trust is no longer an option.

          Truly, I believe that the level of spite and rancor over this issue is due to a number well -placed paid trolls. All this creative vitriole and just plain bad manners is so unworthy of good citizenship.

        • I read that a significant percentage of the measles cases involved in both the infamous Disneyland outbreak and the current Pacific Northwest outbreaks are “vaccine strain” measles, not “wild measles”. Sorry I do not have a link for this.
          Even so, these days one never knows what of what they read is true or partly true, what is false or partly false and what is ignorance and incomplete understanding etc..

          I just did a Yahoo search using the question ” Does the measles part of the MMR vaccine use live virus or what?” The first entry is copied and pasted here:

          About MMR and MMRV Vaccines | For Providers | CDC

          MMR and MMRV Vaccine Composition and Dosage. Two vaccines containing measles, mumps, and rubella virus are licensed for use in the United States. M-M-R II® is a combination measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. ProQuad® is a combination measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella (MMRV) vaccine. Both vaccines contain live, attenuated measles,…

          …copied and pasted from text inside the second entry:

          MMR is an attenuated (weakened) live virus vaccine. This means that after injection, the viruses cause a harmless infection in the vaccinated person with very few, if any, symptoms before they are eliminated from the body. The person’s immune system fights the infection caused by these weakened viruses, and immunity (the body’s protection from the virus) develops.

          A few people who get two doses of MMR vaccine may still get measles, mumps, or rubella if they are exposed to the viruses that cause these diseases. Experts aren’t sure why; it could be that their immune systems didn’t respond as well as they should have to the vaccine.

          About 3 out of 100 people who get two doses of MMR vaccine will get measles if exposed to the virus. However, they are more likely to have a milder illness, and are also less likely to spread the disease to other people.
          Two doses of MMR vaccine are 88% (range 31% to 95%) effective at preventing mumps. Mumps outbreaks can still occur in highly vaccinated U.S. communities, particularly in close-contact settings such as schools, colleges, and camps. However, high vaccination coverage helps limit the size, duration, and spread.

        • Measles outbreaks have been traced back to vaccinated people as the source. Newly vaccinated can shed virus.

          That’s why a fully vaccinated 22-year-old theater employee in New York City who developed the measles in 2011 was released without hospitalization or quarantine. But like Typhoid Mary, this patient turned out to be unwittingly contagious. Ultimately, she transmitted the measles to four other people, according to a recent report in Clinical Infectious Diseases that tracked symptoms in the 88 people with whom “Measles Mary” interacted while she was sick.

          The phenomenon of measles infection spread by MMR (live measles-mumps-rubella vaccine) has been known for decades. In fact, 20 years ago, scientists working at the CDC’s National Center for Infectious Diseases, funded by the WHO and the National Vaccine Program, discovered something truly disturbing about the MMR vaccine: it leads to detectable measles infection in the vast majority of those who receive it.

          Published in 1995 in the Journal of Clinical Microbiology and titled, “Detection of Measles Virus RNA in Urine Specimens from Vaccine Recipients,” researchers analyzed urine samples from newly MMR vaccinated 15-month-old children and young adults and reported their eye-opening results as following:

          1) Measles virus RNA was detected in 10 of 12 children during the 2-week sampling period.
          2) In some cases, measles virus RNA was detected as early as 1 day or as late as 14 days after the children were vaccinated.
          3) Measles virus RNA was also detected in the urine samples from all four of the young adults between 1 and 13 days after vaccination.

    • How complex is “a medical treatment works”? A “vaccine” prevents a disease, or it does not. If your vaccinated child gets sick from the disease that he/she has been “protected” from, then said vaccine didn’t work.

      Please name any OTHER medical procedure that requires 90+% of the population receive it in order for it to work! Funny how the only two vaccines credited with eradicating their diseases were both made before 1973; when Nixon signed into law the Bill that changed American Healthcare from a “service” based industry into a “profit” based industry, while vaccines went from 11 in the 80s to the current recommended 68; 22 of which are owned by the CDC.

      You either control your own body, or you’re someone elses property. We have an Amendment against that people, figure it out.

      • Herd immunity is the protection provided to your unvaccinated child because 90% of the parents around you were responsible and vaccinated theirs. You’re welcome.

        • Our children are safer if they experience the traditional childhood diseases AS children. The same diseases, when experienced as adults, are much more serious. You’re NOT welcome to take over my child’s body and rape it with whatever foreign substances you decide to inject.

    • 1. Wouldn’t your child be protected from pertussis if they had been vaccinated? Oh yeah. vaccines don’t always create immunity. Perhaps a few boosters would be in order?
      2. You could ask the vaccination status of each or your child’s playmates. if the parent refused to answer or answered not to your liking, your could have your child play with someone else.
      3. Your child could be the asymptomatic carrier from being vaccinated and could infect their vaccinated or unvaccinated playmates. So I guess the playmates parents should ask YOU about when your child was last vaccinated. It can work both ways.

    • Pat,
      Please rad further than Wikipedia to educate yourself about the THEORY of “herd immunity.” At least you put the term in quotations where it belongs. The theory was posited based upon wild viruses rather than the strains used in lab-created vaccines. The numbers required for the theoretical immunity to exist are also purely fictional.
      IF you believe that vaccines will confer immunity, then how can you be so fearful about your child playing with a child who may or may not have received every. single. vaccine. exactly. on. time.?
      Are you aware that the term “anti-vaxxer” is a purely propaganda play, designed to divide Americans against each other? Are you aware that the mandatory- and compulsory-vaccine lobbyists include everyone who has received ALL recommended vaccines, if the timing of those vaccines varies AT ALL from the CDC’s schedule?
      So, your child might be playing with a child who has ALSO received ALL of the same vaccines that your child has received, just on a different schedule. Such a child is currently labeled by the mandatory-vaccine lobby as “unvaccinated.”

  • I have a problem with people who are not vaccinated with something as contiguous as the measles. I had no idea that some could get measles by just being in the room when someone who was infected had left. So essentially its airborne. That blew me away. I think antone be it an adult or child would be concerned by that. I think it shows concern for others when you can protect yourself against diseases such as measles or chicken pox and prevent others others from getting it.

  • It’s so easy to solve this problem. Accountability is the demand. If you want others vaccinated, you sign a contract to be 100 percent PERSONALLY liable for any damages that might occur. People need to put up or shut up. It’s amazing our gov’t exempted big pharma from any recourse for being damaged by their products.

    • My understanding of the liability issue is that vaccine makers were threatening to stop making many vaccines because the liability for damage was increasing to a point beyond what they wanted to assume. So the government stepped in, thinking that vaccines were the bulwark of public health, absolved them from any legal liability, and created the so called “Vaccine Court” to indemnify future victims. Sounds good on paper, but
      1. we were not facing the threat of mandatory vaccines, which in turn encourage drug companies to make more vaccines, realizing that the vaccines will be enormous money makers whether or not they are safe or effective,
      2. there were a lot fewer vaccines in 1986 so there were fewer claims,
      3. people in general were healthier then for a wide variety of reasons,
      4. the “Vaccine Court” did not fulfill its legislated role to be the ideal way to get some compensation in cases of vaccine injury. It became an adversarial system where victims had to fight the entire legal and financial power of the federal government that was categorically opposed to the possibility that any vaccine could do any damage to any person. The statistics I have read indicate that @ 2/3 of claimants lose in “Vaccine Court”.
      5. and now, governments at most levels are populated by legislators who are uneducated about medical issues and/or who are bought off at one level or another by Big Pharma.

      Under these circumstances, freedom of CHOICE is the only choice. If vaccines work well enough, the vaccinated will be protected. Those who “cannot be vaccinated” for medical reasons will either be sickened anyway by the many microbes for which vaccines do not exist or may catch vaccine strain microbes shed by asymptomatic carriers who have been recently vaccinated. We know but don’t understand that “booster shots” are necessary because vaccine provided immunity doesn’t last very long and is grossly inferior to natural immunity. For that reason alone, those who “cannot be vaccinated” must be more careful where they go and with whom while they are medically vulnerable. Quarantine is the most successful anti epidemic strategy ever developed.
      I could go on……….
      Please correct any factual errors I may have made here.

      • Your facts are solid. I want to add that the CDC is ethically compromised because it owns patents on dozens of vaccines, and makes piles of money from vaccine sales. Therefore, the CDC is motivated to force as many vaccines into our veins as they can coerce the government to allow. As recent whistleblower testimony has proven, the CDC’s “facts” and “science” are only as good as their immunity to temptation by profits. Experience has shown that is not good at all. The profit numbers don’t lie; follow the money before you swallow lies and propaganda.

  • I am old enough to remember when there were NOT 69 vaccines to be given to young children. AND no one (not even your doctor) got their panties in a twist because you opted to get your children vaccinated a little later in the game. Also, the flu shot — which is totally ineffective if you believe the stats — was not mandated. Lastly, Measles, chickenpox and rubella were considered something that you hoped your child would get before adulthood to avoid all the uncomfortable and/or really harsh consequences of getting them as an adult. No one I ever knew (even myself who was considered a “sickly” child) ever came close to dying from those diseases. Do y’all know that the chickenpos and measels vacs are not PERMANENT? That shingles seems to be more prevalent NOW than then? I’m for a parent’s right to choose. That doesn’t mean that I care what YOUR decision is. Just grant me mine.

    • Nobody gets their panties in a wad today if you choose to stagger or delay the vaccinations.

      Good grief. You hoped your kids got Measles and Rubella? You ever hear of scarlet fever?

      You never caught measles or rubella because you were vaccinated.

      Chickenpox vaccine can’t give you shingles. Shingles is caused by the actual virus staying dormant AFTER you’ve caught the disease the first time. Vaccines don’t give you the disease.

      Chickenpox and Measles don’t have to be permanent if everyone is vaccinated because they are almost always childhood diseases and herd immunity takes care of the adult population.

      Please, learn the science, and quit scraping talking points off some web site.

      • Tell me more about how successful herd immunity has been. The US is obviously well below an effective 90% vaccination rate because any vaccine induced immunity degrades.

        It had been degrading for years and decades for millions of baby-boomers before the degradation was acknowledged. So, where are all the mass outbreaks?

        Why are there so many vaccinated young people getting infected when their vaccines are not that old?

        Any herd immunity applies to natural immunity and not vaccine induced immunity. Good grief!

  • As Mandy here noted, you have PAID pro-vaxxers scouring the web, searching for anti-vax/pro-choice sites to attack. On sites that use Disqus, it is THE SAME PEOPLE (‘sock-puppet’ accounts?), following page after page, all ‘upvoting’ themselves, and follow one of the poster’s to their Profile?

    ALL…….only posting on Vax sites.

    I will 100% bet that the most ugly and virulent anti-vax posts ARE CREATED BY PRO-VAXXERS, pretending to be anti-vaxxers. This is a trick COMMONLY USED by those in power, major corporations who have the money to pay ‘shills’, and as demonstrated by their product which they KNOW maims and kills, I sincerely doubt ‘they’ would be bothered by “ugly and vicious” comments.

    • Seconded. Absolutely true. Old trick, widely used, and people still fall for it.

      Take “Father” Gough for example: we’re supposed to believe this writer is a Catholic priest; not even close. Real priests care about people’s feelings and don’t force their opinions down laypeople’s throats (although they DO get passionate when arguing dogma among other clergy). “Father” Gough probably has ZERO children of his own (or perhaps “father” is actually a childless woman working for one of George Soros’ One World Government NGO groups).

  • I commend you on how you did the vac for your children. Children should not be vaced in the first few weeks of birth. One at a time, with time between, vacs are safest for the child. Most people do not realize that measles and mumps had ran subsided before any vas was available to them. it has been proven getting the vacs even with a booster shot does not prevent the child from catching M&M. I had both, got a couple days off school. First “vac” was the sult vac for polio given on a sugar cube, around 1956.

  • I don’t think that there is any reason for all of this hate. If the pro-vac people want the injections then they can get them and be immune. The anti-vac won’t get them and can’t infect the pro-vac people. Theoretically the anti-vac people will die off. So let people choose. A whole lot of hate for nothing. Seems very simple to me.

    • Pro-vaxxers care about the life of your child. That’s why we get so angry at ignorant parents who put their child’s life at risk by refusing any vaccinations. The core vaccinations: TB, Pertussis, Measles, Rubella, Polio, Diptheria. These diseases KILL or CRIPPLE children.

      EVERY anti-vaxxer I’ve ever heard, including on this site, are so dripping in ignorance about the science behind vaccines, the history of vaccinations, the prevalence and DEADLINESS of these diseases prior to vaccination, that it is infuriating. We get angry because we care about your children.

      Note that I’m not talking about parents who want to modify a vaccination schedule, or opt out of some of the non-deadly/crippling vaccines like chickenpox. I’m talking about the true anti-vaxxer zealots who would rather see their a child die than ‘get’ autism, who think a vaccine is actually more dangerous the scarlet fever.

      • You’re the one “dripping with ignorance.” You are unaware of attenuated live vaccines being in use in current vaccines; you’re unaware of virus “shedding,” the term in quotations because it’s in the vaccine package inserts which advise vaccine recipients to avoid public places for two weeks after receiving the vaccine to prevent “shedding” the virus thereby spreading it to unsuspecting people.

        Further, you don’t know how to mind your own business. Let parents be the ones who make life-altering decisions for their children. Remember the King Solomon test, where he recommended the child be cut in half and each woman claiming to be the mother each gets half? The real mother immediately gave up her claim, so the child would remain whole. King Solomon recognized that the real mother’s love overcame her longing for the child, whereas the pretender’s lust for power over the child which was not hers motivated her to accept half a child as a consolation prize.

        Your “care about the life” of other people’s children is motivated only by money, power and greed. This is clear from your frequent comments in this thread. I wonder how much you’re being paid to spread division among reasonable people and invade people’s privacy while advocating a total takeover by your paymasters of all human bodies.

  • And you’re really surprised about this? People are verbally and PHYSICALLY assaulting people over clothing choices and voting choices because they believe they are morally or otherwise obligated to do so.
    It’s gone from; That person is a confirmed Nazi war criminal who punched my great great grandfather, I should punch them. To; That person is a white guy wearing a MAGA hat and I think the politician who made that quote is a Nazi so I’m going to walk up behind them and knock them out because I think they deserve it.
    Anything is a catalyst today that people believe gives them the right to use violence to make themselves feel better or to ‘strike a blow’ against a perceived crime against humanity.
    If someone wants to go on a screaming frothing rant (I can’t help but think about Dennis Miller’s comment about James Carville -“You know, I would be much more receptive to Carville if I ever got the sense that he possesses anything even remotely resembling the ability to reason. But there is never any real discussion about anything, it’s all just yanking the pull-starter on top of that ugly garlic head of his and watching him turn into a satanic Chihuahua under a strobe light.”) about who I voted for or what I wear or whether I choose to have my children vaccinated based on personal or scientific reasons. If someone decides they feel so strongly my opinion or choice that doesn’t affect them personally is worth them taking a swing at me, then they will get my full attention.
    But, no, not surprised at all.

  • If the US govt says there is no medical use for cannabis, while at the same time the US govt holds the only US patent for the medical use of cannabis, doesn’t that make you wonder? How can that be?

    If someone – anyone – says there is no mercury in vaccines, but the vaccine manufacturer providing the mandatory information sheet packed with that vaccine and required to be given to and discussed with patients SAYS IT CONTAINS MERCURY doesn’t that make you wonder? How can that be?

    If the US govt says mercury is a known heavy metal toxin that causes serious medical conditions if you are exposed to it but also says it is safe to inject directly into your bloodstream doesn’t that make you wonder? How can that be?

    And I’m just using mercury as one example, there are all kinds of toxins and contaminants in vaccines. Mercury is not in every one, but other things are.

    *It is my belief* that the people being labeled as “anti-vax” are usually more accurately not against the concept of vaccines but rather against the concept of toxins and other contaminants in the vaccines and the lack of scientific tests to prove efficacy and safety. They are not “anti-science” – they are USING science as their argument, and they are doing it more effectively than the “other side” which is using emotions rather than science.

    Science is never settled, it is never done, that is the nature of science, to question. If I say I’ve done science proving the sun is freezing cold. Does that make it valid science? No, data has to be validated and it has to be tested and replicated.

    C’mon people, if someone says a vaccines are 100% effective and then turns around and say’s it’s 35% effective there’s a disconnect somewhere. If vaccines are 100% safe but also cause all kinds of serious medical conditions and even death then there’s a disconnect somewhere.

    And conflating everything and saying “anti-vaxxers also believe the earth is flat and are racists and xenophobes etc. etc.” is a failing in logic and science in itself, it is emotional anti-science. Ad-hominem attacks to discredit the other side. Demonize and shame. Divide and conquer.

    An intelligent person can have a belief but when given new information can update or change their belief based on the new information. Why don’t you read the science, read the vaccine information sheets, read about people who have been vaccinated and were injured or died, read the law suits, get informed and well-read on the science and see if you can update or change your belief based upon the new information. Might be eye opening.

    Perhaps then when you think your vaccinated child is 100% protected from becoming infected but that he/she cannot be exposed to the virus or they’ll become infected you might have a lightbulb moment. Hopefully this occurs before your child gets seriously injured or killed by a vaccine that has not been proven to be safe and THAT is your lightbulb moment, because that is a sad awakening indeed.

  • I take a great deal of pleasure in provoking militant pro-vaxers by mentioning that I have never been vaccinated for measles (or chicken-pox, mumps or whooping-cough). I then wait for their reaction.
    After their eyes open wide in the realization that I could be “a carrier” (I probably am a carrier) of these viruses, I laugh at them and mention that no one when I was a child, ever had these vaccinations; we simply got the disease and developed natural immunity.
    I also ask them if their children’s grand parents, or even their great grandparents are alive. If they are still around then they probably haven’t been vaccinated either.
    Then I stand back and laugh as the horror of that thought sets in.

    • You are lucky you aren’t sterile from Mumps. you are lucky you survived whooping-cough. You are lucky your measles didn’t turn into scarlet fever and damage your heart.

      Some people brag about how they and their friends played russian roulette and survived. Doesn’t mean they were smart.

      • Hmmm… scarlet fever did damage my heart at age seven. Funny, but I got it from the BACTERIA that causes strep throat. Had measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough. I was able to pass that immunity onto my babies when I nursed them. Most problems with childhood diseases are due to poor health or sanitation issues. Fix that and you fix much. Got malaria when I was 25. Nothing much helps that but quinine. Had to have a bunch of vaxes to go overseas. Got a small case of typhoid from that vax — 103F temp and horrible pain — a 24 hour truncated version of the real thing. Wowie! There are some things I believe need vaxxes. Cholera, yellow fever, typhoid — very deadly those. But run-of-the-mill childhood diseases for those in good health living in sanitary conditions by and large have no problems.

        Manufacturers have profit quotas . . . but to what end?

      • People who contract mumps post-puberty are MORE likely to become sterile than those who contract mumps as young children. Vaccines interfere with acquisition of natural immunity. Fact. Vaccine-acquired immunity fades.

        Measles doesn’t “turn into” scarlet fever. Measles is caused by a virus; scarlet fever is caused by a bacterium. Vaccines don’t work against bacteria, but probiotics and many natural antibiotics work well to rapidly eradicate bacterial infections. By the way, Tetanus is also a bacterial infection, and there is NO excuse for requiring a “vaccination” against this common BACTERIUM, especially AFTER the person has a puncture wound. Treat it as it should be treated, with antibiotics.

        No one is bragging about playing “Russian Roulette,” which is a game in which one in six instances is deadly. Using this as an analogy reveals your true motive as a paid antagonist.

      • My friend, an elementary school teacher, did get the mumps as an adult and was told he was sterile. He already had four children, so this may have been more fun after the acute stage of illness than other contraceptive methods.
        My friend, raised a Christian Scientist, had pertussis at age 15. She just turned 60.
        My father’s younger brother had scarlet fever in 1926. He was apparently healthy enough to have been drafted into the Army in WWII. He died in 1984 from an aneurysm. The only long term effect it had on my father was causing him to repeat first grade because of the amount of school he missed due to the family quarantine. The meant he was a year older than most of his classmates and may have contributed to his success as an athlete which enabled him to attend college on a full tuition athletic scholarship.
        I had measles, chicken pox and mumps as an elementary school child. Am not aware of having rubella. I had one Salk vaccine and one Sabin vaccine @ 1962 which was mandated by my State. My eyesight deteriorated significantly during the following year. I have reason to attribute that decline to those vaccination, not the Fr Gough would give that any credibility since he does not even believe info published by CDC. Also had one tetanus shot in 1966. I just turned 66.
        The only vaccine my mother ever had was smallpox in 1959. It made her very ill at the time. She died in 2006.
        Her mother (1902-1994), had zero vaccines and chose not to vaccinate my mother. Her father (1899-1990) also had zero vaccines. I have no information to trace it back any further.
        One of my coworkers had shingles @ three years ago, around the age of 73. So her husband, 18 years her senior, following doctor’s recommendations, got the shingles shot. He had shingles two years later. He retired in the fall of 2018 at age 92.
        Fr Gough, you, or someone using the name, are still here. The misinformation you spout has been countered most eloquently and informatively by so many writers citing both personal experience and conventional sources. You express your opinions with much more vitriol that I would expect from what we are being led assume is a priest. So Fr Gough, what is your vaccine history? Are you willing to disclose your conflicts of interest regarding your posts?

      • Bring back polio, small pox and tetanus. Too many people in the world now anyway.

        Ever hear of the Spanish flu? It went on and on for a couple of years. Killed 250,000 people A DAY! They can only guess what the final toll was but those guess’s are between 50,000,000 and 100,000,000.

        If the avian flu crosses into humans it will make the Spanish flue look like a walk in the park. Hospitals will have armed guards on the doors to keep the sick out because if they get in they will infect the

        Stay at home and treat yourself with ederberry wine and you will die drunk unless you have a ventilator in your preps and a respiratory therapist or ICU nurse to work it. I don’t know of anyone who have survived avian flu with out life support and even then, many die while on it. Hospitals will be overwhelmed, And yet I hear that most folks wouldn’t take that vaccination even though it most likely be certain death for them.

        As far as the third world goes, they actually have some rather decent vaccinations plans in place for the kids.
        Mexico has a better system in place than the USA.

  • I agree with you, medical decisions should be our choice, not the government’s, or anyone else’s for that matter.

  • “Herd immunity” – when they refer to people as herds you know how they really feel about you. Herds are managed (and culled) for maximum profits.

  • I only know that I delayed my preemie babie,s shots and he had no preexisting lung conditions. Afterward, it took years of nutritional correcting to fix it. Never again! That was 9 years ago and he is now healthier than anyone in his classroom who are all vaccinated!

  • I can agree that certain vaccines can be optional. Chicken Pox (pre-puberty), Gardasil (for the sexual abstainers), the flu (if not very young or very old).

    But the “core” vaccines protect against childhood diseases that kill or cripple. Is it a parental choice to endanger your child’s life, or put them at serious risk of being severely crippled?

    • But how are we to know which ones are truly safe and effective and which ones are not. For instance – and I am just making this up as an example – but what if the polio vaccine is completely safe but the measles vaccine isn’t? Which ones are core? Which are safe – truly safe and effective? How is a frazzled out parent who wants best for their baby supposed to know what is true or not, safe or not? The Doctor is trained to say what he/she says, but is it true?

      Gardisil is a good one to research. Fast-tracked through the approval process and billions of profits are at stake. “Protects from cancer” but no one tells you it protects from like 4 of the 23 cancers but studies are showing incidents of those 4 cancers are upticking after immunization. AND I’m going from memory on the 4/23 and don’t have time to research at the moment so please forgive that. A good place to look for info is which is a database of govt and peer reviewed studies and other info. Search for gardisil or hpv vaccine or POTS whatever it is you want to research.

      One study on Gardisil was done in the Netherlands or someplace (sorry, forgot of the top of my head) and was done on a “homogeneous” population with similar demographics. So let’s say this is called safe for middle class whites (they didn’t say). But what about blacks? More information is coming out that genetics are a big part of this and more blacks are being injured by certain vaccines. But this isn’t being studied and studying a homogeneous population and then saying it’s safe for a diverse population is not true. That is part of the whole problem, they are not being truly scientifically studied to prove safety.

    • So, “Father,” you believe that the “very old” should be forcibly injected with mercury, a substance known to cause cognitive impairment, against their will? Do you intend that all “very old” people should be rendered insensible via forced vaccinations? What about in years when even the CDC admits the vaccine is “poorly matched against the wild strains” that year? Do you endorse forcing “very old” people to endure being poisoned with mercury and having their immune system hyperstimulated just to help you feel better? Where does your sense of self-entitlement stop? Clearly you feel entitled to control other people’s bodies, en masse. Shame on you.

  • I find it interesting that some people are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but not when it comes to injecting kids with vaccines, some of which have poisons in them. (Read the sheets that are packed with the vaccine bottles for proof)
    My previous comment is awaiting moderation because it contains a link to a physician’s group and their stance on mandatory vaccination.

    • Very good point I am asking too. Either we control our bodies or we don’t… or is it that abortions are only a woman’s issue. No faster way to subjugate a woman than “keeping her barefoot and pregnant” right?

  • I don’t understand why people who’s children have their vaccines ,seem to be mad at others who’s kids don’t? If your child is “Protected” why are you so upset and concerned ? Parents should be allowed to make choices for THEIR own Children. No one likes to be told what to do and by force.

  • i started to read the comments but had to stop. so sad.

    this debate comes down to one thing and one thing only.


    those that don’t believe in vaccination do not insist on mandating anything.

    the same cannot be said of those that do.

    • Actually, “flaart bllooger,” all of the comments except to the fake-“father” are pro-freedom and pro-rationality. “Fr Gough” is the paid troll in the room. Now that I’ve outed him/her, s/he will likely change monikers. Nevertheless, prior comments may safely be perused by blocking or ignoring the blatherings of “Fr Gough.” Read and enjoy the plethora of freedom-loving free-thinking individuals who still inhabit The Organic Prepper’s comment section!

  • The bottom line is, medical decisions need to be a matter of personal choice, not government mandate. I will not stand by and watch my free country become a totalitarian nightmare. I will do what I feel is best for my children based on my own research and will not be swayed by gang stalkers and group think.

  • First let me say that I’m certainly no anti-science person. I do have concerns about how modern medical decisions are made and who makes them.
    We hear all the time about how this or that is a good thing or a bad thing be it food a drug or a diet. Then months or years later we come to find out that some of what we were told were wrong or even outright the opposite and could’ve killed us.
    This is known as progress, experience guided by experimentation and taking in depth surveys and totaling results is part of the scientific method.
    We swallowed whole for many years that vaccines were good. Always good. Then Gov’t got involved and mandated certain vaccines be given to children to prevent some pretty horrible diseases and so far we’ve done good by this policy. However producing vaccines is a business and thus is subject to changes to increase effectiveness, lower cost and make it easier to make. And then there’s those manu. who cheat and are not as meticulous as others and can produce effects no one knows about.
    I myself got a flu shot and immediate got sick, violent vomiting, headache, body ache. All signs of flu. Did the shot give it to me? Who knows? I didn’t die and got well but I’ve never trusted a vaccine since then.

    I think that when it comes to medicine we need informed choices. That means we need to get informed and we need to be able to make the choices.

    Ppl these days get very violent on the internet and now even in public. I believe that’s because so many feel they are not being listened to that their lives are out of their control or being ignored by others and endangering them and they have no way to feel safe other than to attack those they blame for it.

    No answer for that. Daisy’s answer seems to be something we should help proliferate and if someone gets upset just ignore them as much as you can. That’s the world today.

    Thanks Daisy for some sense and writing it down.

  • “After that, I weighed each decision carefully and worked with my pediatrician”… is probably the smartest thing I have read yet. You consulted your child’s doctor. You spoke to a professional who actually treated YOUR child. The more we learn about the human body the more we realize that no two are alike (except identical twins). What kills your child might do absolutely nothing to mine. Before I had children I was anti-vax, but when I became a mother I literally asked every doctor and nurse I knew what they thought about the issue. These were people I knew personally, people who would be sad if bad things happened to my child. They unanimously were pro-vax. My husband and I used that information and chose to vaccinate our children. We have two smart, happy, healthy kids. There is inherently some risk any time you introduce a foreign substance to the body. There is also a risk in not vaccinating your child. My family is able to be vaccinated and are. What you choose to do doesn’t affect me. I would probably feel very different if I had a child who couldn’t be vaccinated due to age or medical condition. I don’t think there is one “right” answer for everyone but I do suggest parents consult a doctor who actually treats their child. Making a decision based on something you read on the internet seems unwise to me. As we all know, anyone can say anything they want on the internet, it doesn’t necessarily make it true.

    • Also realize that your doctor has been educated and trained by the very same pharmaceutical companies that manufacture vaccines. They make large contributions to their schools, provide scholarships, write the curriculum, and publish the textbooks. As genuine and caring as doctors may be, they are trained to provide answers and treatment within those guide lines. Parents must research and do their home work before consulting their doctor on these matters.

      You can have an discussion with open-minded physicians, but the large majority are not. That is why many pediatricians are refusing to provide care to patients who are rejecting or delaying vaccines. They are actually being dismissed from their clinics and the relationship is terminated. Evidence that the practice of medicine has gone from a profession of service to that of profit. They make money from vaccine administration. There is current legislation being proposed to make it illegal for doctors to refuse unvaccinated patients and withhold treatment.

  • I personally think it is rediculious to put a parent down for doing what they think is best for their child. We live in America where we have freedoms. As long as you aren’t abusing your child, it should be the parents choice. I think it’s horrid that ANY parent wishes that a child would die. These are innocents. No one has that right except for GOD! Just remember, you reap what you sow. And it comes back, ten fold. As for the foul language, if you have to use curse words, you are really immature.

  • Honestly, I have seen several times the nasty comment from the pro-vaccine camp.

    I am undecided as to whether or not I believe vaccines are safe of dangerous. Sorry but I DO NOT and WILL NEVER believe vaccine safety studies written by the MANUFACTURER of the vaccine. Sorry but they have a vested interest in proving safety. Same goes for drug studies by the drug industry, they have a vested interest in PROVING SAFETY. Really since about 99% or vaccine studies are neither non-biased or impartial 3rd party studies I don’t read them as factual or honest. The fact that there is a secret vaccine court and the companies are protected from legal liability is troubling. Herd immunity is a questionable thing as it does go against the science of immunity – just saying if vaccines work why are you worried about non-vaxers – unless it is LESS than we are being sold.

    I am NOT saying I am against vaccines, that they are evil, etc. Just look at the facts critically.

    This discord between the vaccinating majority and the non-vaccinating minority is being intentionally inflamed and even caused by the government and big Pharma to remove YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE. There are pros and cons of either vaccinating or CHOOSING not too.

    • A frequent argument trotted out is “there have been no studies yet that show this is dangerous” or some variation. But it’s not that studies have been done that show it is not dangerous it’s that no studies have been done period, or that the studies were explicitly developed, rigged, and data-manipulated to NOT show any dangers. This is akin to the marijuana debate, they say things like “no studies have ever shown marijuana to have health benefits” or something along those lines, when in fact studies using marijuana to show health benefits were BANNED. Totally illegal to do them. So of course there were no studies proving health benefits.

  • Regarding the “herd immunity ” myth. Humans are disease reservoirs. Artificially or naturally immune individuals in great numbers leads to fewer disease outbreaks, but each person’s immunity is a separate entity. My immunity does nothing to protect any unexposed individual, only myself. When we mass vaccinate, there are no guarantees. There have been numerous mumps and measles outbreaks in currently vaccinated college age kids. Why? This immunity wanes. It may be kicking the can down the street as an epidemic will emerge in ten years when it wears off.

    Genes, epigenetics, and ethnicity all affect immunity. Those of European descent have a high portion of the Delta 32 CCR5 mutation which protects against complications from measles, etc. Asians, Africans, and Middle Easterners have less than 1%.

    Vaccinations are touted to be a safe alternative to getting a nasty disease. What parent doesn’t want to spare their child harm, but is it a promised panacea? Vaccinated individuals often shed live virus exposing others, and have been found to be more likely to get infected in some cases.

    Eradication claims: In order for this to be scientifically verifiable, one would need to simultaneously test the world’s population for a given pathogen, and find zero human reservoirs. For this to be true, all sick people need to seek treatment, all those should be properly tested/diagnosed, and then public health officials report the data. That is proving there are no cases, thus eradicated. What we have is extrapolations based on the absence of outbreaks, but is this accurate data? It is economically foolish for any country to publicly acknowledge a contagious epidemic as it can lead to travel sanctions, and thus tank your economy.

    Claims smallpox is eradicated seem disingenuous. Smallpox is easily reconstituted from pustule scrapings. Stockpiles of it disappeared from Soviet bio lab Vector at the dissolution of the Soviet Union (rumored to be in Iran, the #1 biotech lab in the world). Supposedly until recently CDC had it as well. Exposure to foamites not people can transmit it, like blankets given to Native Americans. If it’s eradicated, and poses no threat, why did the US military resume smallpox vaccines, and even develop a new one in 2008?

    If you wish to be vaccinated, then do so. Unvaccinated people pose no risk to you- if all the hype is true. Let others make their own decision.

  • Thank you for fairly bringing both sides to light.
    All parents should have the right to choose for their child. No one should be disparaged.

  • Daisy, have you ever heard of disinfo campaigns. Gov uses it all the time, hiring thousands of trolls to peruse the internet, looking to smear anyone who speaks against their agendas. Microsoft used it for years to smear Apple and their products.

    Do you think a behemoth industry like big pharma doesn’t do the same thing, hiring trolls to go in an pose as anti-vaxxers, saying such awful things? Have you not seen the huge campaign in the media and social networks to silence anti-vax voices?

    I hope you will look a whole lot closer into this. I have been in the healthcare industry more than 50 years, and I have repeatedly seen once-healthy children become completely disable with autism within days or a week of having a vaccination. Just because you parceled your children’s shots out to suit yourself and they seem all right now does not negate the fact that at some point in their life, the accumulation of the toxins in vaccines, combined with other toxins in the environment, will not overwhelm their immune system. Everyone’s flash point comes at a different time, but be assured, it will come if compromised, and often in health problems that are blamed on something else entirely.

    • I see it all the time. What is even worse is that they often report opposing parents to CPS on made up abuse allegations.

  • I think you did it the right way, shots one at a time. That is the way I and my siblings were given shots in the early 60’s. Back then you never heard of autism.
    So what changed since then? The only thing I can see are the multiply shots rolled into one visit. Why was this done?
    Mulitply shots are too much for a young child to handle all at once.
    But we fo need to protect our children from those who do not take vaccines. Some of this my be tied into the children of illegals being sent all over the country. Sudden outbreaks of whoopi coughs, measles, virses, etc. With no explanation as to why the y occurred.
    Maybe if the CDC was more honest with the American people this kind of hate and vulgarity would cease.

  • I have to scoff at people insisting that “anti-vaxxers” are a bunch of moronic, uneducated hillbillies. I’m an experienced, older, Bachelor-Degreed RN, and actually highly educated FAR beyond that and most people in these forums who are still drinking the Koolaid of standard medicine. I also raised 4 kids, who were vaccinated on schedule up until I found just how dangerous flu and HPV vaccines are……let it be said that my kids experienced no obvious harm or side effects along the way from the standard vaccines sans those 2. But since TRULY becoming educated through thousands of hours of reading and studying, I am no longer drinking the same vaccine Koolaid. If the people writing these horrible, evil, uneducated comments had read even a small fraction of what I have, their assumptions would have to change. But one of my favorite sayings is “some people’s minds are like cement, thoroughly mixed and permanently set.” There are more holes in the vaccine school of thought than a pair of fishnet stockings! How anyone can blindly accept that they are good for everyone and save countless lives is beyond me. God help us all.

  • This comment is in regards to getting vaccines as an adult only. I had the chicken pox as a child but my husband didn’t. He got the chicken pox vaccine (two doses) in his 30s as it can be dangerous, sometimes very sadly fatal, in adults. We didn’t want to take any chances especially after having our child. Better to be safe than sorry.

    • P.S. We asked our doctor to check for immunity in my husband’s yearly bloodwork and he didn’t have it. Hence the vaccine.

  • All; the injuries covered by the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program are extremely limited. For instance, for HPV vaccines the following events would be eligible for compensation:
    Anaphylaxis (allergic reaction)
    Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
    Vasovagal Syncope (fainting)

    Further, these events would have to be within the time frame specified or they are not eligible. Anything else is “sucks to be you”.

    So, for example, you take your healthy teenager in and they get the HPV vaccination, and they faint within one hour, they could be compensated. But if they were to immediately have a grand mal seizure and die on the spot, they would not be eligible. Fainting is covered and seizures or dropping dead are not. Sorry, sucks to be you. Now this seizure is made up, I’m not saying the vaccine causes seizures, I’m just saying if it happened it would not be covered, and you can’t sue the manufacturer under liability laws. This is LIKELY why so many vaccine injury claims are rejected, it’s not that the vaccine didn’t cause an injury, it’s that it is an injury they so graciously have decided “does not apply”.

    Here’s the covered conditions if you’re skeptical.

    Now then, I suggest you go to and search for POTS. Read the articles and lawsuits and injuries and deaths. If your kid got the HPV vaccine and a month later developed POTS they would not be eligible for compensation. My daughter should have a bumper sticker that says “I got POTS – ask me how!”

  • I was a sickly child and had my vaccines delayed for a few years. Thankfully, the other students in my grade had their shots. They and their parents protected me. I got my kids vaccinated as soon as i could

  • Thanks for asking for my thoughts, as you often do. I think these words that you wrote sum up the whole situation:
    “the alleged ‘anti-vaxxers’ attacking bereaved parents are actually on the pro-vax side, trying to justify the kind of behavior that they inflict upon parents who want a choice?”

    There is very big money and unimaginable evil behind the push to deny people the right to control what substances enter their own bodies. This same cabal is funding the human re-engineering research and the research into ever-more-deadly infectious diseases.

    Speaking for myself, like you I’m neither pro- nor anti- “vax.” I’m anti-MANDATORY and anti-COMPULSORY. I’m pro-liberty, justice and individual privacy for ALL.

    Thank you for being a voice of reason within the clamor being raised by well-funded professional propagandists. It all comes down to who controls one’s body; and if the individual is denied the right to control his or her own body, then liberty does NOT exist.

    By the way, my perception of CNN is “Constant Nonsensical Noise.”

  • People have become so intolerant of anything outside their own belief system that it’s creating a division among humankind that cannot be reversed without first experiencing total devastation. Whatever that may look like, there’s no going back from where we are now. We must go through.
    People are choosing to protect their truths over protecting their freedoms. No one recognizes there is more than one truth. Like Mark Manson says in his book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, ‘We are all wrong.’ And like Daisy says, soon we won’t even be able to debate anymore. A sad day for us.
    Take it in because we are watching the demise of humankind in real time.
    Thanks Daisy for braving the post. I so appreciate your work!

  • I have a possibly incendiary question. Can you be both anti-vac and pro-life? Mandatory vaccination is not letting a person have control of their body. Pro-lifers also wish to tell someone, in this case only women, what they can and cannot do with/to their body as well. Thoughts?

  • Regardless of which side your support, there is no good or decent reason to attack a grieving mother. Social media makes it easy to say horrible, hateful things that a person wouldn’t normally say to another’s face. If we as a people are unable to control our comments or actions, then maybe we should be told what to do. We should all live in white houses, drive blue cars, and always wear black suits to work.
    Point is, pro or con, respect the views of others if you wish for them to respect yours.
    My thoughts: 1) if you’re not supporting my child, what makes you think you’d have the right to decide his care. 2) no medical agency or personal should be able profit from the distribution of vaccines due to a conflict of interest. (kinda like the fox watching the henhouse). 3) where does one draw the line against bullies?

  • I”m not sure about vaccinations, other than I think that we get too many and that there are poisons included in too many of them. I wonder how many of these diseases are really opportunistic diseases, that a person who has proper nutrition, rest and exercise either doesn’t catch the disease at all, or if he does, has only a mild form of the disease? Have you looked at the diets that were common in the 1800s and before?

    I’m against GMOs, but that’s because I studied genetics, at the university.

    One thing I can tell, Dr. Peter Hotez featured in the video is a liar. I noticed that after he gave statements, then he followed them with the “liar’s smirk” showing that he himself knew that his statement was false. I’m tempted to go back through that video to count how many times he did that.

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